Audio Golf: Can Sound Improve Your Golf Swing?

In this episode, Chase and Raymond are joined by Chia Chou, concert pianist, university professor, and founder of Audio Golf.

Chia shares how his background in elite music training led him to explore movement, rhythm, tempo, and sound as tools for better performance. The conversation dives into movement sonification, auditory-motor entrainment, putting tempo, wedge distance control, driver sequencing, and why sound can help golfers access skill without getting buried in mechanics.

They also discuss where Audio Golf may be most useful, where it has limits, and how mindset still matters when pressure, anxiety, or the yips show up.

To learn more about Chia and Audio Golf, visit audio.golf or follow @audio.golf on Instagram.

Transcript

Raymond Prior (00:02.415)
Welcome everyone to the Golf Beneath the Surface podcast. My name is Raymond Pryor, your co-host. With me is my co-host, Chase Cooper. And today we have a guest on the podcast, Chai Chow. Chai is a member of the audio golf team, which we'll get into here in a second. Welcome.

Chia Chou (00:19.761)
well, thank you very much for having me. Thank you, Chase, for having me over. Great.

Raymond Prior (00:23.927)
Yeah, and it's what time where you are. think you said you're in Austria.

Chia Chou (00:26.439)
It's, yes, I'm in Austria at 6 PM right now. So I'm seven hours ahead of you.

Raymond Prior (00:30.021)
Okay, I'm glad we got it in right around your dinner time for you. No disruption to your day whatsoever. Chai, tell us about yourself. Give us a little bit of your background and then we're gonna talk audio golf.

Chia Chou (00:34.621)
Right.

Chia Chou (00:42.911)
Okay. Well, my name is Chai. I come from Toronto, Canada, and my mom, my parents forced me to take piano lessons as a kid. I wasn't too hot about that. I would have preferred to play baseball or something, but yeah, I had to piano lessons. And when I was about 17, I sort of intrigued me a lot and I wanted to try to become an internationally renowned concert pianist. That was the dream.

Raymond Prior (01:12.101)
Mmm.

Chia Chou (01:13.375)
And somebody told me the best training for classical music at that time was in West Germany. So I entered West Germany when I was 17. I entered a major academy here. And yeah, that's how I got here. And I'm a trained concert pianist. yeah, and I realized quickly that I didn't have the talent and the training to, you know, make an international career. But I wanted to do it anyway.

So I developed it.

Raymond Prior (01:43.129)
Let's say that's interesting you went from hating piano lessons to wanting to be a world renowned pianist.

Chia Chou (01:50.272)
Yeah, it's a bit, it's a long story. It's a long story, but it's interesting. Yeah. But again, it was, I went there when I was 17, I'd already jumped a couple of grades in high school and I had a, I had time to spare. So I wanted to try it out, see if I can make it. That was it.

Raymond Prior (02:05.261)
Yeah. And while you are pursuing this, you're learning some things that will then later to translate to golf is my understanding.

Chia Chou (02:13.449)
Well, yes. Well, the idea was basically, I knew that practicing seven to eight hours a day wasn't going to get me past all these guys in front of me. Like everybody was ahead of me. And I started looking, I know in chase, I know you, in your business, you don't like this word, but I started looking for shortcuts. I said, there's no way I'm going to get past these guys practicing eight hours because they're practicing eight hours a day too. So I had to find a shortcut and want to make a long story short.

Raymond Prior (02:22.189)
Mm-hmm.

Chia Chou (02:42.815)
I started looking at my own practicing techniques and well, four years later when I'm 21, I win one of the major piano competitions in the world, which is equivalent in your world to the British Open. So, I found the shortcuts.

Raymond Prior (02:59.607)
Yeah, it's shortcuts might be the right term for it. But if I'm digging into the science of practice behind it, you are in an organic, organic way understanding I'm not going to out quantity other people to success. So I need to change the quality of my practice in a way, in a way that says, and so what, how did you change your practice in a way where the quality became?

Chia Chou (03:17.799)
Exactly, exactly.

Raymond Prior (03:25.369)
that such that you actually made more progress versus just doubling down the amount of hours.

Chia Chou (03:30.075)
Exactly. Well, again, you know, Raymond, you understand this better than anybody. And I see it with my own students now. I'm professor at a university here in Austria. And I would say that 99 % of my students waste 99 % of their time practicing. It's just this, you know, millions of reps which don't bring anything.

And instead, I started myself looking at myself, focusing on what am I actually doing? Why am I missing this note all the time? And great pianists don't. That has to be a way.

Raymond Prior (03:54.287)
Yeah.

Raymond Prior (04:09.837)
One of the things that the research on practice shows us is that many of the longstanding sentiments or beliefs about practice have been incorrect for a really long time. Like more is better or perfect practice creates perfect performance or the idea just do it until you can't get it wrong are viciously incorrect and create. And. Yeah, we should note the $10,000 rule is a real thing. We should note it's an average and it is not only.

Chia Chou (04:29.182)
or the 10,000-hour rule?

Chia Chou (04:36.99)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Prior (04:39.589)
quantity, it is also the quality, meaning deliberate practice, which you're talking about, and we'll get into about how audio golf sets people up for that, is a mean, it's a different feedback loop that is much higher quality than what you were noticing and what we see in golf quite frequently, which is people are just trying to do something on repeat until it will repeat itself, which is not how our nervous system works. Right. So again, not to get to make this about me, but the

Chia Chou (04:40.562)
Yes.

Chia Chou (04:48.136)
Great.

Chia Chou (05:01.118)
Thank

Raymond Prior (05:08.035)
people who are pushing, just need to get a repeatable golf swing and do it and do it and do it and do it again is wildly incorrect about how we learn and what is actually required for learning and performance, which is not just repetition, but adaptation.

Chia Chou (05:22.822)
Yes. Well, I think, as you said, think using what we use in audio golf, using a sound pattern to sort of describe, not describe, but to actually, yeah, utilize a golf story to describe a golf swing in its speed, its tempo and all other factors. can, I always say it's like the sound pattern is like a stencil for a 60 yard pitch shot.

You follow the sound pattern and you'll just automatically get to a 60 yard pitch shot without thinking about it. So again, it's about learning skills and accessing them on the course.

Raymond Prior (06:06.981)
So then let's use that, tell us about Audio Golf and then we'll kind of talk about what it is built upon, which is movement, sonification, we'll clarify this, but tell us kind of the journey from you going from music to golf, know, since this is a golf podcast, so tell us more about that.

Chia Chou (06:11.806)
Mm-hmm.

Chia Chou (06:20.574)
Well, it started about 10 years ago. I'll make it really short. I met at a marathon meet the new boyfriend of my physiotherapist. And at the end of this meet, he was like fifth from 800 runners. And I was quite impressed because like even though he was fifth, he was really frustrated with his performance, which I find, you know, like my best students are the same.

They make a tiny mistake somewhere, they come off stage and they're frustrated. And I said, you know, it's too bad you're not a violinist or pianist. I could show you things in music technique that could make you play a scale faster, but you're a marathon runner. I know nothing about marathon running. And that's how he said, what would I say to him if he were a violinist? And anyway, that's how it got started. We would test run a kilometer. He ran it in three minutes, 20 seconds. And I gave him a sound pattern.

to help him as if he were a musician to play faster. And at the end of the test, like three minutes later, he was 18 seconds faster. And that's how I got into this. I said, I don't know what's going on here. I have no idea, but we should look into this. And then eventually I got to golf.

Raymond Prior (07:22.969)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Prior (07:36.518)
Okay. And then eventually it moves to golf, which is a skillset that tempo does play a significant role in tempo defined as the timing of an entire motion and also the transitions between them, meaning how much time and oftentimes those are measured in a ratio. in music, you're going to have a tempo or a meter in golf. You're going to have a tempo and chase will probably know the exact ratios of

putting strokes or different swings where there's an amount of time it takes for a backswing versus a downswing to impact that that ratio of time is consistent with, we might say more consistent ball striking or putting stroke or hitting a line in speed or club face contact location. So what you learned

through music and what you're teaching and then has now transferred to athletic motions is a process of learning in our nervous system called movement sonification. Take us through that.

Chia Chou (08:36.488)
Well, again, it's sonification being the, how do you say, transferring information into sound, basically. And we will take a sound, a movement pattern, chase you, like I said, for a 30-foot pot, a 60-yard pitch shot, a drive, and we'll translate this into syllable phrases, which will replicate

the swing pattern, how far to take it back, how fast to take it back, how fast to get to the ball. Okay? And it's very simple actually, but it's interesting.

Raymond Prior (09:18.533)
Okay, before you take us through that, for our listeners, I'm gonna set up what, like kind of some of the neuroscience basis for movement sonification. So, movement sonification is just a pairing of sound with anything. In this case, the sonification is paired to movement, hence movement sonification. And it is a sensory integration, meaning we're taking one or more senses and pairing them together.

Specifically what this coupling creates is a different feedback loop for us. So the reason that perhaps movement sonification helps people practice better and perform better is that the feedback loop isn't just rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat. I get to perhaps feel something different that tells me something or hear something and then pair that with something. So I get a feedback loop between what I hear and what I'm actually moving in.

And this is not something new. see this in a variety of different places. For example, obviously in music instruction, it is very popular. There are instances of it in golf. So if you're been putting with like a metronome, there are a series of different training aids where if you move in a certain way, you're going to hear a sound at a certain point in the movement. want to say there's some type of a sound putting bar somewhere that I've seen on the market where this is different in your audio golf is that it is a

human generated or a self generated tempo signature, as you pointed it out, that people can use where now the feedback loop is. So basically if we're doing putting as the example here, the sound that I am using, the sound signature, the phrase, and then how does that match up to when the putter moves, when it transitions, and when I make impact so that I know this is going too fast, this is going too slow.

The transition is too fast, so on and so forth. So again, there's an integration where one sense I get a disparity between the two when it's done incorrectly or not as efficiently and the two will match when I don't. So this is not a new thing, but it is a way to help train tempo for people in a way where it is more human and self-generated where basically you're pairing your auditory cortex in your brain with the motor cortices.

Raymond Prior (11:35.127)
In which case then they are sharing information and then is giving a feedback loop of did you or did you not do this in the way that you wanted to? Are you or are you not on time, so to speak? Okay.

Chia Chou (11:45.011)
Yes. Well, again, Raymond, as you perfectly well know, we're taking advantage of this phenomenon in humans called what do call it, auditory motor entrainment. How we hear a song that we like and without even thinking, we're tapping our feet to the beat. Okay. It's a human trait. I don't know if it's natural or it was like culturally developed. I'm not an anthropologist, but using this

Raymond Prior (11:56.279)
Yep, that's right.

Chia Chou (12:14.856)
this effect that people synchronize their movement to sound is exactly what we're using. And as you said yourself, it gives a feedback loop. So that if I'm using the sound pattern and I'm off, I'll feel it.

Raymond Prior (12:30.339)
Yep. Feel it, feel it. And typically you might also hear it depending on what's going on. And you're right. So just the, again, a little bit of the brain behind that is the fastest and strongest parts of our brain are highly attuned to sound. And us tapping our feet to a beat is technically movement sonification. I'm matching my physical movement to a sound or

pairing it with those to a degree. So this is something that our nervous system can do without a ton of conscious thought. tends to be some of the faster, stronger parts of our brain. So a lot of it sits in the, cerebellum, which is kind of the part that is wrapped around our brainstem, so to speak. And then our basal ganglia, which if people have heard our podcast before, that is the threat detection part of our brain, but it also one of the motor pattern, generating and motor learning.

So oftentimes when you get those two things synced, we tend to find, so you could take somebody who kind of, I've seen a couple of different practices where you take somebody who really has a hard time finding a beat on their own and you give them a metronome and then automatically their brain starts to find that even if you have like a note. So if you took a piano lessons as kids, you were forced into them like you were a child. Typically those lessons are gonna have a metronome sitting on the piano as well. Well, why?

people will naturally start to gravitate towards that tempo, whatever that might be. Indeed. Okay. So tell us a little bit more about like the programming itself, how it works, how golfers can use it.

Chia Chou (14:03.144)
Well, again, I think this might be a good time to... I'm going to use chase now as an appropriate example. If you don't mind, chase.

Raymond Prior (14:13.112)
Yeah.

Chase Cooper (14:15.498)
guinea pigs, I'm all for it. Let's go.

Chia Chou (14:16.926)
I'm just going to show you an example how this how this ultra motor entrainment how it's so in our in our whatever on our system. Okay, and I'm gonna can you see me chase? you see me? I'm gonna show you a hand move. Okay, this actually comes from tennis, but it doesn't matter. Okay, I'm gonna take I want you to take your hand in front of your chest. Okay, and pull it towards you and about, you know, 20 inches in front of your chest. Okay, like this.

Raymond Prior (14:16.93)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Cooper (14:31.072)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Chia Chou (14:46.012)
And I'm going to pull towards it like this slowly and say the word AHM. A-H-H-M. Ahm. Ahm. Okay? Ahm. Okay? I claim, in front of Raymond, I claim this sound and this movement are connected. Ahm. Ahm. How does that feel? Is it alright?

Chase Cooper (15:09.24)
Feels good. Relaxing.

Chia Chou (15:11.016)
Okay, so now to show you, to demonstrate to how tightly it's connected, I want you now to show me, I say these two, these factors are connected. This sound, this movement pattern, okay? Now I want you to show me that there's no connect for you, you can just ignore it. I want you to say arm, like you just said now, arm. But instead of doing this movement, soft towards you, okay? I want you to give me the opposite. I want you to rip your arm away from you, like a really strong.

back catch and tennis, but same arm at the same time.

Chase Cooper (15:42.606)
Okay. that feels weird.

Chia Chou (15:44.658)
You did, I know, say

Chase Cooper (15:47.893)
Chia Chou (15:49.694)
No, that's not a backhand. That's not a really rough backhand. Come on, rip it. Yeah, you see, you've changed the sound. Try to do it without changing the sound.

Chase Cooper (16:01.982)
yeah, it's, it's weird. It's like rubbing my belly and tapping my head at the same time.

Chia Chou (16:04.178)
You get it, right? This is the most basic example. And it's so locked in into our brains. Okay? You can't ignore it. You can't even override it consciously. So that's basically the idea. Rayman knows this. Okay? How this is connected.

Raymond Prior (16:04.527)
Challenge it to, yeah, yeah.

Raymond Prior (16:22.143)
The our nervous system is designed to pair sense. It likes when our senses match each other because it makes us feel safe and coordinated. And there's also a layer of like visio spatial. kind of know where I am and how to navigate it. So it likes when what we see matches what we hear. It likes when what we feel matches what we smell. Like when these things start to match, helps us anchor into our environment. So

creating disparity between the two of them is difficult to do because it's less efficient for us. So needless to say, if I tell you do a very rigid motor movement, which comes with its own sensory experience that looks, sounds or smells with different, so something hard with something soft, it's very difficult to match those two. So they will naturally try to move together. Right. Indeed. Okay.

Chia Chou (17:15.28)
Exactly. Yes, that's great.

Raymond Prior (17:19.949)
So the system here, if we're saying, okay, well, how does this apply to golfers who are listening going, okay, and then they're asking, what? So the so what is, if I can learn a series of signatures, these are the phrases that audio golf helps people create. Then what I do is I follow those signatures to try to create different motor patterns, which we might say is just really auditory based tempo training. Okay.

Chia Chou (17:47.262)
Yes.

Raymond Prior (17:49.347)
Right on. What does that again kind of give us some examples of that, how that looks like, where people would use that.

Chia Chou (17:56.671)
Well, the classic example is, as it's also like I said on our website, is the sound pattern, yala bam. Chase, okay. Yala bam, Y-A hyphen L-A and then bam B-A-M. You're watching Chase? Okay. So it goes yala bam. So when you say ya, you take the club away from the ball. It's a putt. Okay. This is a sound pattern designed for a 15, 16 foot putt.

Okay? Yala, and when la, the L, the A in las stops, you stop. That's the end. You don't go yala and can keep on going 12 inches. You don't stop before you don't go yala, you go yala. Okay? And then the B in bam is the actual pun. So go yala, bam. Yala. The B is contact. When you your eyes and just imagine it.

Chase Cooper (18:48.96)
Okay, so the B is contact. Yallah.

Chase Cooper (18:55.886)
Okay, yeah, I mean, it feels like a 15, 15 footer, 15, 15, 18 footer, yeah.

Chia Chou (18:58.11)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Raymond Prior (19:01.231)
Right, so here, so for those who are listening and not watching, ya, the very start of the phrase is the takeaway. The end of la is where you would transition the putter and then bam is impact, right? So what it would be giving you is the tempo or time signature of a putt, ya la bam, which again, based on.

Chia Chou (19:09.16)
Yes.

Raymond Prior (19:25.143)
a variety of different conditions of the green is roughly a 15 foot putt. We'll talk about how your programming accounts for that stuff here in a little bit. But what you're saying is I have a 15 foot putt, and again, correct me where I'm off course here. Instead of me trying to necessarily think about technique or how hard I need to hit this thing, if I have calibrated my signatures for different distances, then when I have a putt that is playing roughly 15 feet, all I need to do is allow my stroke to follow

Yallah bam. And then again, that is a sensory driven experience matching two senses rather than necessarily trying to control a motor pattern with activation of muscles necessarily, conscious activation that is.

Chia Chou (20:08.604)
Yes. Well, as you know, as a non, I mean, this fascinated me from the very beginning. know, Chase, I told you I don't play golf and I'm just imagining I'm on the green and as a non-golfer, I have to do, have to think about speed control. Okay. I have to read the green and I have to aim. Okay. And from those things, if you use the Allah bam, I'm taking one of those things out. And probably the hardest one.

I know what you think, just read the green, aim and just go, Yaa laa baaam. Of course you have to practice this a little bit as well. But the idea is you should be around 15 feet and our clients all tell us this is very, very effective. This helps them. And also in tournaments. keeps your heart is racing, you're under stress.

And again, going back to Raymond, is the factor that helps you gain external focus. Instead of, you know, what am I doing? How am I standing? What's my grip? Just, you know, just let it go.

Chase Cooper (21:22.862)
So so char quick question. So I like where what I would say to like keeps the brain occupied. But how do you do it? And I'm sure you're get into this. But how do you differentiate between a 10 foot or a 15 foot or 20 foot or a five foot or a 30 foot or like what's the what are the next step?

Chia Chou (21:36.959)
Okay, this is going to be discussion because a 30 footer is another sound pattern. It really is. It's another sound pattern. Now we could discuss this for forever. mean, you know, there are purists in your world. I've met a lot of them who say a perfect putt is a two to one time ratio. And by the way, you figured this out already. Yallah BAM is a two to one ratio.

Okay, ja, la, ben. Ja and la, both of these syllables take 0.32 seconds to execute. Okay, I've measured it. And so it's a perfect two to one ratio, okay?

Chase Cooper (22:19.374)
And so real quick, if I say yallah Bim or yallah Bim, you still think just based off the rhythm of it, it's going to be two to one?

Chia Chou (22:27.006)
Well, of course, if I go, yallah bam, it's not, it's going to be faster. But again, it's about control. Okay. It's about, and like I said, I Raymond said before about locking in emotion, locking in emotion. Of course, padding is different than pitching and chipping. But if you practice this and you go, yallah bam. And that's why when I told you before, yallah, there's a hyphen between la. I want every player to say yallah bam. Okay.

Raymond Prior (22:27.176)
Yeah, it'll be two naught.

Yeah.

Chia Chou (22:56.454)
And even under stress, shouldn't turn out to be yallah bamm. Okay, I mean, even if you're nervous, yallah bamm.

Raymond Prior (23:01.722)
Yes. So one of the caveats here, Chase, is that the tempo, how you use the phrase, meaning the timing of it has to be consistent. Right. So obviously yallah bam is different than yallah bam. And then any of these phrases. there is basically, I'm again, I've gone through the programming that audio golf has, and there's different parts of different lengths, different types of shots that have different phrases.

Chia Chou (23:17.277)
Yes.

Raymond Prior (23:30.554)
that present these different time signatures. And in theory, if you match your motion to the time signature, assuming you apply the phrase in the correct tempo and you match those, then you would have whatever the, very close to what research shows us as the ideal tempo for that type of shot, right? So let's say, yes, the two to one ratio for a 30 foot putt.

It's the same ratio, but it's a different amount of time because the stroke is longer. So I would need a phrase that is longer, but the same ratio or something very close to, or like a driver, think drivers three to one, almost three to one for most players. So that phrase will be different and be, so I need to be able to produce that phrase in the right timing to then match my emotions to it.

Chase Cooper (24:10.924)
Most of this went.

Chia Chou (24:22.376)
Well, again, this is like a fascinating topic, Raymond, because, you know, I've heard so much about this classic two to one ratio. Okay. And even when I watch professional putter players on the PGA tour, I see them doing whatever, a 60 for putt. That's not two to one anymore. Okay. Chase, I don't know what you think about that, but it's not two to one. It has to speed up somewhere. Doesn't it?

Chase Cooper (24:49.728)
Yeah, I mean, I think two to one, at least from a length to finish standpoint has been something that's been very popular recently. It's not always it's not all I know there's a lot of metronome people that like to see something like 70 to 75 beats per minute when it comes to and I don't know the math on that. But I would say two to one is not always set in stone, at least from a putting standpoint, I know.

Like two seven to 3.0 tour tempo made that kind of popular with full swings. It was something around three ish to one. I think he had two seven, two eight, two nine and three. But I would also argue like putting you're going to see kind of the ratios kind of being a little bit all over the board. If we really dove in and measured it all.

Chia Chou (25:18.374)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Chia Chou (25:30.398)
Yes. Well, let me tell you a personal story. I had the honor of meeting Brad Faxon about five years ago and we were at his club and he won a demo about audio golf. And then we had this thing, we had this club, he had this green, I've never seen anything like it. I think the last pin on the green was like about a hundred feet away. I mean, you're used to this. I don't see those things a lot. And I said, Brad, do me a favor, putt to this flag.

Okay, and he said to me I need a putt this long maybe once a year. I said, please try. Okay. So anyway to make a long story short, he sets up, he makes the putt, one putt, and he ends up like literally about three feet away from the fly. I mean it's just crazy. Okay. And I said, okay, Brad, when you putted, I was hearing this sound pattern. Okay. I gave him the sound pattern. I can't remember what it was, but it wasn't two to one. Okay. And,

I should just put five balls and let's see what happens. Okay. And he uses the sound pattern, he puts five balls and they're all within three feet of the flag. And that's how I got it. I convinced him with that. And the thing is Chase is that when I see this kind of movement, and this is where it's interesting with science, I hear a sound pattern. I hear it. It jumps into my head. I don't even have to think about it. It's there right away. And so it's interesting.

I hear the speed, I hear the relation to backstroke to downstroke, the ratio, I hear all these things and I can translate it into a phrase.

Chase Cooper (27:11.81)
And check with your work with being a, you know, pianoist and all that stuff, like obviously with sports and on the, on the sports performance side, controlling one's, you know, rhythm and tempo. we start talking about stress and how stress and nerves and anxiety start to play a role into that. again, my first question is how do I keep my players? If, we've, find that we find these, these phrases that work for these distances.

How do I get them to still do it on the last hole of the tournament when they've got a one shot lead? And how do I keep them at that same, I'd like to say almost cadence, but how do I get them in that same rhythm, that same tempo every time?

Chia Chou (27:55.455)
Well, again, also Chase, as a musician, can tell you, I I experienced it myself. There's this theory in the music world, Raymond helped me out, that your feeling of tempo is directly related to your heartbeat. So if I'm relaxed 60 beats per minute, like boom, boom, boom, boom, it's like normal, regular walking. Okay, but I'm up to 130, okay, boom, boom, boom, boom seems like regular, normal walking.

I mean, it's that thing. it's a very, it's it's a complex issue. Even musicians who are very well trained. I have fantastic students. They started a concert and I'm just going, my God, what are you doing? You're playing at 30 % faster than normal. So again, to answer your question, think using an audio golf phrase and with the hyphens, okay, can help you at least get a feeling in your pre-shot routine.

To get find the normal temple, even though your heart is beating. That's what our clients tell us. They say that it really helps.

Raymond Prior (29:07.301)
Yeah, it provides a different sensory experience than just what my heart rate might be. So something else to anchor to. And yes, there's a connection between our heart rate and our tempo. There's a big nerve between our brain and our heart called the vasovagal nerve and the vagus nerve. And those nerves definitely create the sensory experience for how fast I need to be moving or I should be moving. And those are not always optimal for us when we're feeling those. Right. Okay.

Chia Chou (29:14.205)
Yes.

Raymond Prior (29:36.879)
Take us through what the programming looks like. So if someone was interested in, okay, so we've got these time signature phrases that Chai sees, and I would like to experiment with them, try them, use them as a tool in my golf. Like, how does that programming look? Where does it work?

Chia Chou (29:43.357)
Mm-hmm.

Chia Chou (29:54.899)
Well, we've got it now in almost all aspects of the game. Basically, we have courses that are online for like pitching, short pitching, longer pitching, putts, short putts, middle putts, and driver, driver, club head, increase. There's all kinds of courses available. Like I said, the best thing is, of course, because it sounds so out of the box. It sounds so crazy. I get it. I know it.

So the best thing is I advise people to go to our website, watch the demo. It's two minutes. Sign up for the free lesson. It's the Yalla BAM download at all. It doesn't cost anything. Okay. So you experience what it's like to actually use it. And then if you're interested and to go further, there's a medium putt course. I think it's 20, 25, 30 feet, three sounds, three sound patterns.

and it's reduced to $29. It's a big discount. And there's a 30-day money-back guarantee. I mean, you just can't lose on this. And we're developing new courses that are coming out in a few months for chipping, bunker, flop shots. I think I've got that right. that's what's coming. And there are all kinds of courses. You can see them online.

Raymond Prior (31:19.299)
Yeah, I've done the programming for all those and gone through all of them. There are a couple of things I really like about it. You have a lot of troubleshooting. So Chase It Act's example, like, okay, yallah bam is a 15 foot putt under what conditions. So there is a calibration. It depends on how fast the greens are. It's what a putt is playing and your programming includes troubleshooting for people that are

Chia Chou (31:35.806)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Prior (31:45.318)
Working through that so that phrase yallah band might be 15 foot for somebody but it might be 12 feet for somebody else or it might be 20 feet for somebody else depending on The greens they're playing and there's a calibration method. There's also practice instruction for how to actually go about practicing those types of phrases and using them for all different types of the game, which is really good and then there's a lot of Information about like if you're experiencing this

Go back and check this. So again, you're giving people a lot of information for how to close their feedback loops or how to find the disparity between those two. So it's not just here's a phrase, go use it in hanging people out to dry. So there's quite a bit of that that I really liked in the training as well. from, we've talked about a lot of different things that people can do to help.

focus in a way that executes their skills. We've talked about quiet eye and a variety of different things. This is one of those tools that there's actually some pretty good neuroscience behind for, well, instead of me thinking about mechanics, I want to get more external and something less, we might say forced. This is an option for people for sure.

Chia Chou (32:58.814)
Well Chase, I see this a lot with my clients. For example, at one of the courses, I do this also in private lessons here in Europe. But let's say I give you a sound pattern for a 50 yard pitch shot, okay, using a sandwich. Okay. And you get this motion locked in exactly, you know, how far to take it back, the speed and everything. Once you get it locked in and I see this with my clients in a private course, we've got them pitching five balls, 50 yards, and it takes them about 10 minutes to do this.

Consistently, okay, but once this motion is locked in it's not just a 50-yard pitch shot Just imagine you've got this one motion. Okay, and now you use a 7-iron Okay, and you can calibrate the distance with that or use a lob wedge 5-iron. Okay, once you've got the movement locked in you're very You're free to use it for many other clubs And hey, that's very that thing's very practical

Raymond Prior (33:55.11)
As another option to something like, for example, the clock system for controlling distance. So that is another sensory means like basically how far do I feel like I have turned or my arms have moved. This is a, well, how long have I, how long is the sound that I'm making or what time signature phrase that I want. So it's another option for distance calibration for different clubs, particularly the scoring clubs. And then also

something that I can focus on while I'm actually hitting shots if I'm looking for something to go to that isn't chasing certainty or mechanics.

Chase Cooper (34:31.694)
Yeah, there's been a lot of a lot of short game guys that have been using using time to control distance for a while now, whether it is with metronome, whether it is with whatever, you know, whatever sound system that they're they're kind of using. I guess some of my questions are still around like the troubleshooting aspect of this. Like I feel like after hearing this.

To me, seems like putting in short game are where you guys really would probably shine more on as far as speed control, distance control, getting people even, you we talk about the yips on here a lot and, and, you know, we've got to, we've got to face the, the, anxiety and the, and the fear around the yips first and find acceptance first. But I feel like going external and having, having a

something to focus on instead of it being the set rigid mechanical movement, think is, is really, really good. I'm still kind of curious about how many y'all, all bam sayings I'm going to have to have if I'm going to go play golf tomorrow and like try to figure all that out. And so I'm, I'm still curious, you know, obviously in my world, I see a lot of.

Raymond Prior (35:33.763)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Cooper (35:38.563)
Fairly decent rhythms and tempos, but not necessarily good low point control and not, not necessarily making good contact. But I also see people that do make good contact that can't control their distances at all. So I see both, both sides of the aisle. And so I'm just, I'm again, I'm curious how, how we can apply this to again, a 50 yard shot, a 60 yard shot, an 80 yard shot, a 90 yard shot. Like how do we keep, and do I have to have all these words and all these things? And like, do I have to have a, have a list of

Chia Chou (36:02.942)
Chase, I don't

Chase Cooper (36:05.77)
a list of numbers and things that look like Bryson DeChambeau's yardage book that has all these different positions, right?

Raymond Prior (36:11.014)
You

Chia Chou (36:12.574)
My answer to that is right away, just try it out. I can get your access to the courses and then you'll see, you have to feel it.

Chase Cooper (36:23.534)
So for our listeners at home, them a little, you we talked about Y'all Abam, give them a little taste of how you would differentiate between say like a 25 yard pitch shot or a 30 yard pitch shot and a 60 yard pitch shot. how would you give them a little bit of some wedge ideas just to let them kind of play around with this a little bit more at home?

Chia Chou (36:43.676)
Well, again, I think before I answer that question, Chase, I want to be careful because just giving you the sound pattern here without any sort of explanation. used to do this a years ago and people will call back and say, this doesn't work. This is crap. And it was, and they weren't using it properly. Okay. So, but all I can say is I think I want to get people into this slowly and convince them. they try the,

the medium pitch chorus and then you'll see, they'll know. And then if it doesn't work for them, they can get the money back. I'll give you an example of how this is, there's not just syllables, okay? For example, if I've got a player, I've have clients who tend to be quick and nervous, okay?

Okay, I might give them a putting shot or a chip shot. I will give them the two syllables. So it's like quiet as in quiet and mood like a cow. why don't you say it for us? Okay, say it again. Great, now let's say you're really stressed.

Chase Cooper (38:01.57)
Why Moo?

Why Moo?

Chia Chou (38:08.702)
And for example, if I use a different saying, ka-ka-tu, ka-tu, k-a-t-o, ka-tu, ka-tu. Now, let's say I'm really nervous and I start pushing these two syllables together, ka-tu. That can happen. Okay, now try doing this with kwa-mu, try that.

Chase Cooper (38:19.404)
Ha too.

Chase Cooper (38:31.502)
Try going fast with Quaimoo. Quaimoo.

Chia Chou (38:32.253)
Yes.

But you know, that's quite, you open your mouth, and you get your together, you have to put your lips together. You can't really rush it that much. Okay? So that's, there's these factors built in deliberately. It's not just the sound. That's why some players are asked to say it out loud and they can't rush it. And there's all kinds of factors. It's not just, you know, it's not just that we have sound patterns for different distances, different shots.

Audio golf, we can also integrate other elements. For example, I was meeting just a few months ago, a very good player and his trainer says his weight shift is at the wrong moment. Okay. And a drive. He's going back and he's, what's that classical problem? His arms are ahead of his hips or what is that? What is that called?

Chase Cooper (39:27.806)
just lack of separation first move down the kinematic sequence isn't quite right.

Chia Chou (39:30.322)
Yeah. Yeah. So the sequencing thing. And by giving this person a player, like when you go up, when you hear this sound pattern, you're going to turn your, first of all, shift your left foot. Then you're going to do a hip, your hip shift, hip turn, and then you can do the strike. Okay. Instead of thinking about it, by using an audio golf pattern, okay, we can get a player to do this like.

Like Raymond said, without much conscious thought. That's the beauty of it. Because of this idea of auditory motor entrainment, we synchronize to the sound. And that's why this, we think this, that's why our clients tell us this is really effective. It really works.

Raymond Prior (40:20.342)
Couple of things to consider for people who are doing the programming if we're just looking at the larger research around movement sonification in any craft whether that's music or sport or anything There is some level of skill dependency that impacts the efficacy of movement sonification So the better you are the more effective it is so it's movement sonification can help increase skill acquisition and application but as you said if you have

Absolutely atrocious technique and you're trying to follow a beat that atrocious technique will also you'll be like, will it make it better? Perhaps, but oftentimes there is a pretty high predictive value of I have developed a certain level of skill with something and then I apply some sonification or some type of double or triple sensory integration into that. Like many things for us.

It has to be applied toward the skill, not to guarantee outcomes. So the more I try to apply tempo training, any type of technical training or something to what guarantees the outcome for me, I'm not applying that to the right thing. It's not applied to the skill. It's applied to the outcome. And our brain cannot quite pair those two things in the same way. So if I'm going, if I do this, then that will guarantee the outcome that I want, not necessarily help me create the outcome I want, but guarantee it.

there's a disruption in our brain is already ahead trying to predict the outcome in which a case becomes too difficult or more difficult for our brain to pair the two sensory experiences together. The mindset we bring to this is also really important. So you had mentioned before we get this feedback loop, which translates to our brain as error feedback, meaning I tried to do this, pair these two things together and they weren't, I was either too early or I was too late or my phrase was too fast.

And that error feedback is processed in a part of our brain that bumps up against both the emotional center of our brain and the cognitive processing part of our brain. If my mindset is more fixed, meaning this tells me that I am or I am not good at this thing, then I will process that feedback emotionally, which is another way of saying taking it personally versus in a more growth mindset, ooh, this is information for me to get better and make.

Raymond Prior (42:40.272)
corrections or adjustments, I process that feedback loop more cognitively, in other words, saying, getting curious. that was a little bit too soon. How can I delay my transition a little bit to make sure that these syllables match my movements? So the mindset we bring to this matters very much about how we interpret and how we actually physically and emotionally experience this feedback loop. So you could take somebody who's immensely skilled, give them this feedback loop and in a

Chia Chou (42:48.124)
Yes.

Raymond Prior (43:08.55)
fixed mindset, it's going to be a very threatening proposition to them versus somebody who's less skilled, but in a growth mindset. And this feedback loop becomes super beneficial. Hence the quality versus the quantity necessarily here. And then finally, for us to use these types of tools, the sample size or the application of it has to be randomized because that is what pairs makes sure that we are isolating these two sensory experiences. So for example, if I have a 15 foot putt,

and I go yallah bam, but I hit five of those in a row, I'm not actually getting the feedback loop of yallah bam, I'm getting well that putt I hit was a little bit too long. So I already know I just need to take a little bit off it. So I'm actually pairing my visual experience with the motor pattern in a way where we know that just putting the same putt over and over again doesn't really help us actually learn the things we need to do to putt better. So if you are going to use this, you want to randomize. So I do a 15 foot putt here, I do a

20 foot putt over there. So I'm changing this so that I'm actually getting feedback on how I'm matching the movements I'm making with the auditory pattern in front of me rather than just learning from the outcomes of the previous thing that I've just done. So even we see this in music training, if you just do the same musical piece over and over again with even a metronome, it's not as good as now we're going to move to a different piece that requires different notes, but perhaps on the same tempo or

the same piece, but we're going to change the tempo. So it's either going to get faster or slower. That if you're not creating some variability, that feedback pattern becomes disrupted or influenced by another sensory experience that may or may not be the one that we're actually trying to create the feedback loop with.

Chase Cooper (44:53.742)
That's really good.

Chia Chou (44:54.27)
I'm 100 % on the technique aspect. If you have a miserable golf technique, this won't help. That's why our courses are designed for ambitious, good players. again, it's fascinating. as you said, was taking this as an anecdote. Last year, was in Germany doing a leg putting course.

I think we were doing this and there was a lady beside me, client, she was about 70 years old, loved the lady, and we were standing beside her and we were doing like 40 foot putts and she hits the ball and the ball's not even six, seven feet away. She turns to me and says, that's gonna come out short, a lot. I was off in the pattern. I wasn't fast enough to get to the last syllable.

Raymond Prior (45:49.966)
Mm-hmm.

Chia Chou (45:52.743)
Okay. And it turns out, yeah, she was about 10 feet short. Okay. But this is what I think is really great. It's not just helping you practice. I mean, you know, skill, skill access, the gaining skill, but the feedback loop tells you, okay, when I'm not on it, okay, it's not going to be the result I want. And, but you can also say why. Okay. I think that's, I think it's probably the most crucial thing. It's just, it helps you practice effectively, I think.

or more effective.

Raymond Prior (46:23.089)
Yeah, yeah, like I said, it creates a feedback loop that gives us not just the what, but a little bit of the why as well in terms of tempo in this case. Yeah, indeed, indeed.

Chia Chou (46:32.86)
Yes, exactly.

Chase Cooper (46:34.798)
Chai with regards to the feedback loop, do you ever have players that they think that they're doing it right, but you can tell that they're not? Like, do you ever see any patterns there?

Chia Chou (46:45.502)
You mean they're executing the sound patterns, they think they're executing the sound patterns correctly? Well, again, yes, happened. It doesn't happen that often. It doesn't happen that often. it's, and it's, how do I say this? We were doing a driving course a few weeks ago and the player thought he was doing it correctly, but he was always a bit late at striking the ball.

But the crazy part was he was consistently too late, like every time, by about a tenth of a second. So I mean, I'm not gonna fix that. What's that saying? If it's not broken, don't fix it. mean...

Chase Cooper (47:26.414)
Yeah. Because we will see a lot of metronome work with, with putting or with wedges where they don't, they're, they're not as, as quick as they think. Or, you know, when it was special, a lot of times there's a, there's a lot of, you know, in our industry, you hear a lot of people say smoother is always better, but it's, that's just not really the case a lot of times. And so like trying to speed players up and they think they're as fast as they need to be, but they're not, they're not really there. And so was just kind of curious, like, you know, how, how you handle that if it's

If they think they're doing it right, but they're not quite right. The other question I have is like, you know, in the past, I'd heard kind of the tour tempo stuff and some other people had talked about like making players walk, a, take a walk for a certain amount of time and then count the steps. And then that's their kind of their, their tempo. And the point was like, some people walk fast, eat fast, talk fast, drive fast. Some people walk slow, talk slow, do all that stuff. Right. Do your, do your words and,

Chia Chou (48:14.874)
Yes.

Chase Cooper (48:20.62)
phrases change for those people or is it still pretty consistent across the board as far as what phrases?

Chia Chou (48:25.128)
Well, like I said, just using this, like Bremen said before, if I'm going, Yala Bham, okay, Yala Bham, and that's my temple. is, I mean, this is I feel when I'm relaxed, okay? And I have another client who's called Yala Bham. Yala Bham, it's just faster, but he does this every time. And it should work for him too. It will work for him as well.

Chase Cooper (48:53.24)
And so then one of them may have that their y'all are banned, maybe a 12, a stock 12 foot pot. The other one may be a stock 15 foot pot. And then you kind of base it off that baseline.

Chia Chou (48:58.022)
Yes, exactly. Yes, like Raymond said before, this should only viewed as a tool.

Chase Cooper (49:12.512)
Hey, try in our industry. You're, everyone's looking for a life changing fix right this second. When you said this wasn't for high, high handicap golfers, we lost half the podcast. They all, they all turned off. were, they were done. I'm joking. I'm joking, of course, but

Raymond Prior (49:22.616)
Yeah, no. One of the populations that I do think that if they are curious about this, as we age, oftentimes our motor control starts to deteriorate a little bit. So there's all things all the way from like neurological disorders, but also just as we age, the

speed with which our muscles and brain communicate tends to slow down a little bit. So for anyone who's doing this, there is a large body of research on movement sonification that irons out people's, whether it's their gait, what they're walking, after some type of neurological disorder, being able to learn.

movement patterns again that smooths them out. So for anyone listening who's, may I don't have the yips, but I've got some type of just kind of a jerky motion or a delayed motion or something, there is a significant body of research that shows that those things can improve in how smooth and how they are timed with movement sonification as a means of training for that. So.

It's not, again, jerky motions are not always caused by anxiety and they're not always caused by poor tempo. So if you're someone who may be experiencing something that is probably just a little bit more something again, related to aging, or perhaps you were in an accident or, or you had an injury and maybe there's some type of nerve damage or muscle damage. There is, like I said, often some things to be gained from this as well that just might help iron out my motions at least a little bit, which can.

go a long way for stuff too. Just wanted to mention that in there.

Chase Cooper (51:00.066)
And RP attack the yips real quick. If, we wanted to go down the path of like this, this was a, I'm not going to say a yip fixer, but if, if we thought that this, this could be almost say a distraction for the yips, but you know, go, go down that path a little bit.

Raymond Prior (51:14.278)
Sure, the research is super clear that if I'm bringing anxiety to something, whatever I try to put on top of it is not gonna deal with it, right? So with this, like Chai said, this is a tool, but what he said, the mindset matters. And if I'm doing something in an avoidance-based way, dear God, do not let this outcome happen, or I don't wanna feel bad. You can throw whatever tempo you want over it. The priority is for your brain to get you either to not do that thing,

to do it as fast as possible and to survive that moment. So tempo does not become a priority. If anything tempo would keep you in it longer, in which case then it could be more disruptive for you. So if you address the anxiety, then move down the line, meaning now I go to my technique or now I go to my tempo training where now I can train the tempo that I want, but I remove the anxiety, can be incredibly valuable. But...

Chia Chou (52:03.198)
Thanks for watching.

Raymond Prior (52:06.114)
everything from quiet eye to technique to any type of sonification to a change in putter. The window for that being something that becomes efficient is essentially it's anywhere from three minutes to 30 days because it does not address the source of it. So again, there are a lot of things that can help us putt better, play better, but the main instrument is always us and what we're asking ourselves to do first. Am I asking myself to pursue this in the way that I want to?

Chase Cooper (52:12.654)
Struth, punter, yep.

Raymond Prior (52:33.678)
And I have some best practices for that, which might include the tempo that I bring to it and the time signature that I'm trying to follow. But if I doing this going, do not screw this up. You can kind of throw whatever you want at it. And it's going to be marginally effective at best or disruptive at worst.

Chia Chou (52:49.757)
Mm-hmm.

Chase Cooper (52:50.392)
Short, short-term relief at times, but it doesn't. Yep.

Raymond Prior (52:52.174)
Yeah, again, short-term relief. So again, it's a nice tool for us to go to, but if I am playing trying to just not screw this up for whatever reasons I have decided are behind that, this can be something I can go to, but the effect of that, eventually my brain's gonna realize the risk is still here.

Chase Cooper (53:07.894)
And the other thing I've seen too is like, could work, say a high school player, works in high school tournaments when they don't mean as much, but then a big AJGA are coming down the stretch and then that stuff reverses it.

Raymond Prior (53:12.896)
Mm-hmm. Good. Justice recognized as these are meaningful stakes. So again, you can, again, it's not just this, it's also like the skin. I always pick on equipment. I like equipment, but I give you the best clubs in the world when you're playing freely, they're going to work great for you. If you go to a tournament and the stakes matter and you go, uh-oh, don't screw this up, or this needs to be perfect. The tools you're using, whether they are physical or whether they are.

auditory or whether they are strategic become compromised.

Chase Cooper (53:46.031)
Good stuff. Chai, do you have any feedback on with putting, it's a little easier to control the face than it is with driver. When we add speed to it, do you have any feedback on players that tend to miss it more right or tend to miss it more left and what you found on if they need a cadence rhythm, they need a slower cadence rhythm or have you really recognized that?

Chia Chou (53:53.66)
Yes.

Chia Chou (54:07.742)
Well, I'm going to throw something at you now, Chase, which I don't know if Ravens heard about this. The driver, of course, is the biggest swing in golf. And I'm not trying to make a salad. I'm just explaining something. As a musician watching golfers, hundreds of golfers, have I asked you...

Have you ever thought about your backswing in a drive? it for you mentally? How many units is it broken down into?

Chase Cooper (54:42.958)
how many units, amount of time or how many segments of the backswing?

Chia Chou (54:44.508)
Yeah, how many units? many?

Chia Chou (54:50.066)
many units, whether time or feel or whatever. Is it for you one big swing or is it broken down?

Chase Cooper (54:58.51)
That's a great question. would say most of time it's one big swing. There's times where I would say I would break it down into a little bit of a takeaway feel and a little bit of a top of backswing feel.

Chia Chou (55:08.508)
Yes, right. Okay. The thing is we found that if you break it down for clients, okay, whether it's okay in different groups, Everyone says, I'm this, I'm category A, I'm category C. Okay. And there's no explanation for, there's from musical sense, there's an explanation for it. Okay. But I'm just saying that

Chase Cooper (55:29.87)
And try real quick when you say category A or C that means they put themselves into it's either a big swing or it's two, two segments or three segments.

Chia Chou (55:36.127)
No, I'll give them for the exact same swing, a drive, I'll give them three different sound patterns. Three different ones. Okay. And they're designed in a specific way. It's complex. And every one of the golfers we've done this hundreds of times, they say, Oh, I'm definitely like category B. And the B sound is the one I like best. Exactly. Without a doubt. Okay. And.

Chase Cooper (55:59.592)
gravitate to one of them specifically?

Chia Chou (56:05.766)
Yeah, try it out. Try the driver course. You'll see.

Chase Cooper (56:09.228)
And so you find what they kind of like and feel, but again, every golfer comes to a lesson to improve something. like the goal then is to get them in that same, I keep saying cadence, but that same tempo rhythm every time. But yeah. And so from, from that point though, like, okay, chai I'm doing this, but I'm missing it. Right now, obviously from my perspective, I'd say we'll close the face or check contact or kind of get technical.

Chia Chou (56:21.628)
You can say cadence. Cajun is a scratch.

Chase Cooper (56:34.946)
How do you, if a player is struggling with hitting it right, like how do you help them? Like, is there a way that, you believe that speeding it up or slowing it down or is there a way to fix it?

Chia Chou (56:43.262)
Well, this is a classical situation. I just had to just last week to clients with exactly this problem. Okay. Now, as I told you, I don't play golf. Okay. And then I will, we will just set up like a private lesson that you can organize that on our website and you'll come, this client would come like with, with you, your, personal trainer, his trainer. Okay. And you'll say, he's hitting it to the right. The tempo is right.

The speed is right, but he's hitting off to the Off to the right. And I'll say, Chase, why is he doing that? I need an explanation. Okay? Is that something, it's either his grip, which you can fix, or something else. And what's the classical problem for hitting it to the right? Going like, no, like under.

Chase Cooper (57:34.019)
Well, I mean, whether it's a movement pattern issue, it's just a face control issue, it's a contact issue. mean, there's, you know, we can get really lost in the weeds on the why. I'm just, again, I'm just curious if you've seen patterns of, there's some other people doing some similar research, not necessarily with words, but with time. And a lot of times they think like,

If it's too fast, it leads to open face at times. If it's a little slower, it allows the face to close. And so there's some, there's some ways that they speed up the sequencing to control the face. And I was just curious if, if in your research of doing this, if, if there are things that you've learned over the years of when I, I find that when I speed players up or I find that when I give them more time in the backswing, it allows them to do X. And I was just curious if you've, you'd found any, any antidotal evidence.

Chia Chou (58:20.434)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Prior (58:20.891)
Yeah.

Chia Chou (58:23.016)
Well, like I said, I haven't worked with thousands of players as you have. I haven't noticed, I'd say a pattern yet, because I think every player, every individual is different and unique. And I think every problem would probably be unique. I don't know.

Raymond Prior (58:41.058)
Yeah. So Chai, if I heard you correctly there, you do include players, coaches with what you do. It's more of an integrated approach than people would necessarily just come to you without any input from their coach. Did I hear that correctly?

Chia Chou (58:56.862)
Yes, that's correct. We also offer, like I said, a private lesson online. I set it up with a player, some really good players know exactly what they want so they don't have to break the coach. I have a very good example of this. I'll throw this at you in a minute. But there are players who say, I need to have my coach with me because I won't see the problem, Okay. You'll say, oh yeah, you see the turn wasn't early enough or whatever. I won't see that.

But the coach tells me, look, watch this, watch this. Can you slow him down here? Can you get his weight shift more, you know, you know, emphasized and I can give you a sound pattern for that. And it works. Okay. And by the way, in our private lessons, if I can't fix the problem, you don't pay.

Raymond Prior (59:39.686)
Yeah.

Raymond Prior (59:50.599)
Okay, Chai, tell us where we can, or the viewers, the listeners can find you, find Audio Golf, if they're interested in exploring this more and getting into it.

Chia Chou (01:00:03.42)
Well, like I said, our website is audio.golf. It's very simple and you should be able to easily find the free demo, the free lesson. yeah, and yeah, just try it out. I think we talk a lot about this stuff, but I think you have to try it to experience it. Just as an example, a final example.

Raymond Prior (01:00:09.254)
Mm-hmm.

Chia Chou (01:00:30.974)
Last year at the honor, I did a webinar for the LPGA and I was contacted a few days later by a lady named Corinna Calipouras. And she was last year at the U.S. seniors open, U.S. open seniors, a lady, she was 10th and she knew exactly what her problem was. Like I'm going to say it here, but it was, it was a timing problem. Okay. She said, and when I get into a tournament and get under pressure, this happens. Okay.

So I gave her a sound pattern and it was fascinating. It took us like 20 minutes. Okay. And she was, she was loving it. And this last year, 2025, I was, I was in Asia and I was watching the U S open and yeah, going on on the fourth day, Corinna was in first place with a three stroke lead. mean, then, you know, and then of course then again Raymond.

comes in and says, well then beliefs, A beliefs, V beliefs. Okay. And she ended up, still she ended up being fourth. Congratulations. Fantastic. She's a great player. And again, it shows you that even players that level who are basically technically they command everything. It's still up here.

Chase Cooper (01:01:51.022)
percent.

Raymond Prior (01:01:51.91)
And try anywhere people can find you on social media, Instagram, if they're not just audio golf, but just kind of interested in what you're doing and how you're doing it.

Chia Chou (01:01:59.078)
It's also an audio golf is also an Instagram. Yeah. Instagram and yeah, that's it.

Raymond Prior (01:02:05.57)
standing. Okay, Chai, thanks for joining us my guy.

Chia Chou (01:02:09.394)
Yes. Chase, let us know if you're interested. I'll get you access to the courses. I need you to try it.

Chase Cooper (01:02:15.758)
100%. I will definitely, I'm definitely interested in the putting stuff, especially with my own game. Some lag putting and I've had some struggles with some lag putting for a while. So I'm interested in it from a short game standpoint, that I'm also curious about how you guys teach driver for sure. There's some definitely want to dive into it.

Chia Chou (01:02:31.698)
Yeah, let us do a lesson on Monday with one of your students. Love to do that. Okay.

Chase Cooper (01:02:37.036)
Okay, I'll definitely take you up on that for sure.

Raymond Prior (01:02:39.908)
Yeah. Well, one thing we bring here at the Golf and Eat Service podcast is a growth mindset to many things. So though we might be skeptical, we are also curious and open to learning more about it and not being cynical. So like I said, I've looked through the programming. There's a lot about it that I like. Certainly there's some caveats to it. And I promise you, Chase, if he says he's interested and curious and wants to see how it works, he'll follow up with you too. That'd be great. Of course, guys. Thank you so much. Be well.

Chia Chou (01:03:03.101)
Love to show you. Thanks for the invitation. take care.

Chase Cooper (01:03:03.862)
Nervous, nervous. Awesome, Chai. Thank you.

Raymond Prior (01:03:10.395)
All right.