Dr. Pete Kadushin: The Stories That Shape Your Game

In this episode of Golf Beneath the Surface, Chase and Raymond are joined by Dr. Pete Kadushin to explore how the stories we tell ourselves shape the way we perform.

They unpack how beliefs, narratives, and past experiences can quietly create the “rules” golfers play by—rules about score, failure, swing mechanics, pressure, and what is or isn’t possible. Pete explains why sport often acts as an amplifier, revealing the same patterns we bring into other high-meaning, high-uncertainty areas of life.

The conversation dives into why golfers often chase swing fixes when the real issue is their relationship with discomfort, uncertainty, or heartbreak. They also discuss swing thoughts, when to make in-round adjustments, why one bad shot is not always a pattern, and how trust can create more freedom than constant correction.

This is a great episode for golfers, coaches, and parents who want to better understand how mindset, narratives, and self-protection can either limit performance or open the door to growth.

Transcript

Pete Kadushin (00:00.213)
shaped feet.

Raymond Prior (00:00.238)
Welcome to the Golf Beneath the Surface podcast. I'm your cohost Raymond Pryor with me as my cohost, Chase Cooper. And today we have a friend of the show slash just friend, Dr. Peter Kadooshan, who Pete, I'll let you introduce yourself, but Pete and I are very good friends. We went to graduate school together, fellow colleague in the performance psychology industry. So welcome to the show, my guy.

Pete Kadushin (00:14.178)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (00:27.438)
Brilliant, wonderful to be here. Really appreciate the invitation, Chase and Raymond. Yeah, my background, similar to yours, Raymond, is in performance psych and my focus is on performance enhancement and also the opportunity for us to use our performance domain as a sandbox for transformation, right? So to become better versions of ourselves through the pursuit of better performance. Because if I want, know, personally, I want my cake and I want to eat it too.

Raymond Prior (00:47.406)
Mm.

Pete Kadushin (00:56.91)
Most recently I've worked with the Chicago Blackhawks organization as first the embedded mental performance coach with the team and then as the manager of learning and development and then a passionate head case of a golfer myself. And so I'm always test client number one with all of the strategies that I'm deploying.

Raymond Prior (01:11.991)
Mm.

Raymond Prior (01:17.198)
Yeah, it's an interesting framework you set up where we've talked youth sport on this before. And one of the things that we kind of pulled out and what shows us in the research is that when parents go, want my kids to go into sport to build character or to develop different capacities and virtues and so on and so forth. Sport doesn't do that alone. You have to engage with sport or help children engage with sport in a way where that develops because

Pete Kadushin (01:39.096)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Prior (01:46.061)
sport can be a way for us to develop all the things that we don't typically really want or wouldn't associate with resilience or even enjoyable, satisfying engagement with something, including the sport itself. So it's a developmental landscape, but what develops isn't just inherently something productive. It can also be pretty unproductive and unhealthy for us. it's a really...

nice framework that you set up where it's like, well, if we're going to do this, not only do we want to perform better, but like, what if it was also helping us develop as human beings?

Pete Kadushin (02:18.324)
Yeah, I find sport to be an amplifier, right? So the way that it's set up, the competition, the intense pressure, both the pursuit and avoidance that comes baked into wanting something really, really badly and it being uncertain. All of that is going to turn up a lot of what I think we're gonna talk about today, which is how our beliefs help shape our actions and how our actions create our reality. And...

Raymond Prior (02:34.957)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (02:46.132)
I'm using a bunch of ontological coaching concepts today. so ontology is the study of being. And so we're really down in the sort of the core of things, which is perfect for a show called Beneath the Surface. And so really looking at how do we be in relationship to things like success and failure? How do we be just even relationship to score and golf can reveal so much about how our minds create what's possible and what isn't.

Raymond Prior (03:14.766)
Hmm.

Pete Kadushin (03:15.5)
And when we think about sport from the big picture, we set out a goal or a big dream or a vision, and something happens when we decide and then are accountable to that big dream or vision. A golfer who decides, hey, I wanna break 80 for the first time, or I wanna win my local tournament, or I wanna play on the PGA Tour. Whatever the goal is, then we are revealed in our pursuit of that goal.

Right, so not only the essence of what makes us successful at this level and then potentially successful at the next level, it's also the ways we manage and deal with disappointment, how we hide from heartbreak. And so it really is a sandbox, but it's going to reveal who we are. And then from there, we need support to then transform into the version of us that can make the next thing possible.

Raymond Prior (04:09.132)
Yeah. And our podcasts here.

kind of ad nauseum, our listeners hear me talking about our relationship with, and then fill in the blank, success, failure, uncertainty, not really being in control, being uncomfortable, judgment from other people, so on and so forth, and all of these things that, as you pointed out, when we are actually pursuing something that is meaningful and worthwhile to us, we now become vulnerable and at risk to all of these things in certain ways, including our own internal environment. And so to your point here,

Pete Kadushin (04:16.419)
That's right.

Raymond Prior (04:40.752)
It's not the sport that moves it in a certain direction. It's us It's just the sport that becomes this kind of trigger board for us where now all these switches are gonna start firing off that is gonna reveal to us Exactly where we are in relation to a variety of certain things and some of them have to do with the sport itself Pete I'm guessing as we start talking about narratives a lot of them have to do with things that are far deeper than that we've talked about micro meso and Macro level core beliefs for us and where they show up in sport They're gonna show up there at some point

Pete Kadushin (05:07.138)
Mm-hmm.

Well, and how we are in our relationship to golf is going to be how we show up to things that we hold in a similar position to golf. Right. And so an example from my own experience, I was a wrestler in high school and I cared deeply about the outcome. I was a wrestler, my identity and that were fused. And what that meant was if I was definitely supposed to win or definitely supposed to lose, I could wrestle free. But everything in between

I was really constricted because of the narratives that I had, the actions that were available and the reality that I lived in. When I took on playing hockey for one season as like a cross training and a warmup for wrestling, if you looked just at how I behaved, you would say, okay, well, he holds wrestling in one way and he holds hockey in another because I didn't have any judgments about myself. I didn't have any expectations. And so it would be

Raymond Prior (06:02.893)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (06:05.128)
easy to then just look at that and go like, okay, well, you're a different person in two different settings. But what was true is if we think about those deeper beliefs, it was just the flip side of the same coin that was playing out in wrestling. It was just that I was further back in my experience as a hockey player. So there was no early success. I didn't know how to skate or stop when I started playing. So like there was nothing at stake for me from an identity or an ego standpoint. And so it looks different.

but it manifested actually truly in the same way. And so when we think about working with someone in a golf setting, they're gonna show up the same way they would in business, they, high meaning, high uncertainty scenarios, or in their relationships when things start to get pressurized. And that beautiful thing about the work we do is then if we work in golf, it's going to ripple out and affect other aspects of life too.

Raymond Prior (06:49.582)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Prior (06:59.245)
Yeah, we've talked about on the show before how our psychology and neurology generalized. So what shows up in one area is more likely to show up elsewhere, even though the two areas may or may not have different overlap in our lives. But our psychology is not meant really to be compartmentalized in such ways. Indeed.

Pete Kadushin (07:17.484)
Yeah, we didn't evolve for that.

Raymond Prior (07:18.895)
Yeah. Okay. So we have an experience here that I think will really tip our conversation today. You're talking about, was in two different things and it's not that I was a different person. I had two different mindsets. Mindset by definition is a belief or a series of beliefs that filters an experience before, during, and after. So that means this is what it means to me. This is what success and failure that essentially this is the trigger board that is on or off. And then our mindsets are reinforced.

often by narratives. Narratives are the stories we tell ourselves. So take us through what you have been exploring, the work you've been doing as it relates to narratives, whichever human being can relate to because we all have them.

Pete Kadushin (07:59.436)
Yeah, narrative as in the story that we create around what has happened. And we tell the story of what has happened to then predict what will happen in the future. And so we can see this as like a piece of paper that gets folded over with some ink and we're going to then, how the last round unfolded, we'll then use as a predictive mechanism because as human beings, we would rather predict

a negative outcome, then rest in the uncertainty. feels better to be like, you know what, next round is going to suck. Then

Raymond Prior (08:30.465)
until we actually change our relationship with uncertainty, right? Okay, great. Sorry, I'll stop interrupting so you can keep going. Yeah, yeah.

Pete Kadushin (08:34.382)
That's right.

I'm here for the interruptions. And so what I look at is sort of this whole bundle of beliefs and narratives and what often gets pushed in both counseling and performance psych is like, you just need to change your story. And again, from the ontological perspective, there's more scaffolding that ends up around this. And so if we have our beliefs and our narrative, those are going to predictably offer us

certain behaviors as available and then certain other behaviors as out of bounds against the rules or just simply they occur to us is not possible. Then from there, the actions that I take create a reality that I live in. And it's not that my reality isn't true. It's just personalized, right? The way that I feel the world is and occurs is true to me, but won't be true to you in the same way. And then the sneaky piece about this is that my reality confirms all the beliefs that I have.

in a way that then makes them feel very reasonable. So all of this together we call context and we have contexts about everything, right? How people should drive on the highway, how people should eat at a restaurant, how we should spend money and how we shouldn't. And there's nothing wrong with a context until it's in the way of something that you want. And so if you're a golfer who wants lower scores, you can look at where your context comes together.

to support you in shooting lower scores, right? But there's also probably someplace where this bundle of beliefs, actions, and reality hold you back from being able to take the action that's going to get you to the next level below that.

Raymond Prior (10:19.31)
So here we have in part a definition of us getting in our own way by the core beliefs we have, the stories we tell ourselves and the context we create for ourselves, essentially the room we box ourselves into and how tightly that is. And we talked very, quite a bit last time in our episode on how powerful confirmation bias is. And we might see here that our mindsets.

Pete Kadushin (10:24.472)
Mm.

Raymond Prior (10:45.358)
via our narratives and then the narratives via our context are all highly subject to confirmation bias in a way that makes us feel, as you pointed out, this is all that's available to me, even though there might be more. This is possible, even though there might be more possible, or this is impossible, even though something else might be possible. And I'm stuck in this, even though you might not be. It can feel very real based on all that evidence stacking up that we're only seeing a small portion.

Pete Kadushin (11:12.094)
Yeah, it would be like somebody arguing against gravity existing. You'd look at him, you'd be like, I drop an apple, the apple hits the ground, right? I hit a golf ball with this path and face angle, right? At this speed, it's going to land there. We can use a computer to tell you that. Physics is physics. So it occurs to us as concrete as those rules. And then we can start to unpack and see how this unfolds as people explain what is or isn't possible.

And so there are interesting ones that show up. Like I've had clients who have proclaimed that they absolutely can't not take a practice swing before they hit their golf ball. Or when they hit a shot that they don't like, that they have to take a practice swing right after that to get the feel back. And in their mind, it occurs as this is the way this works. I have the feeling. And then the next time I step up to the same eight iron, right? I know that the feeling is in there. And so it, it can feel really rational and logical.

Raymond Prior (11:48.696)
Right.

Pete Kadushin (12:11.126)
And again, nothing wrong here as long as it's not in the way of what you want. But I had a client who was going through that process and then would struggle to find the feeling after a poor shot and then would get more activated and then would fixate on that and it would pull their attention and their energy away from the next shot and the shot after that. And when I offered the opportunity, said, hey, what would happen if you didn't take a practice swing after a bad shot? I couldn't possibly.

Right? So now we're starting with the action and we could work backwards to uncover some of the beliefs or the story that they're telling themselves about it. Right. But for the reality piece, right, there's enough to your point about confirmation bias. There's enough of an example here around I've gathered all of these moments where I didn't take a practice swing afterwards and then I didn't feel right over the next golf ball or I did. And then I was able to clear the bad swing and then I was able to hit a good one.

Raymond Prior (13:07.747)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (13:08.034)
that again, it occurs as fact, it reinforces your belief, and then it keeps you stuck in that space where it's like, well, I don't have any power over this. And being disempowered around your own psychology and around your experience on the golf course is not a fun way to play golf.

Raymond Prior (13:25.39)
No, it's pretty disenchanting overall. And so here you're kind of highlighting what are the underpinnings behind our brain as one, a task running machine and what is it actually running after? Is it certainty, control, comfort, so on and so forth. And it's also an association making machine. It's also just not very good at making accurate associations most of the time. And so we have these kind of, like you said, these narratives that are

giving me some information and curating my experience that feels very real to me in a way where I might be pursuing or trying to avoid something that I don't need to pursue or avoid. And in a way where my brain is creating an association that is very strong, but not necessarily true.

Pete Kadushin (14:08.312)
That's right. And the way that one of my coaches has phrased it is like we can go after the thing that feels like it's in the way because it's just the next problem. like, you know, I need to shell the shell the shaft a little bit, or I can notice that my, you my arms got in front of my hips on that swing and all of those things can be true. But if it's not the

the wall, the brick wall that's in between what you truly want right now, then we end up distracting ourselves, avoiding the one thing that we actually have to move through to actually transform. And then we just keep distracting ourselves by the next thing and the next thing after that. So, hey, I'm gonna go back to the range and I'm gonna panic practice after a round because I need to feel good as opposed to confronting whatever is really underneath that, which is maybe the stories that I have around.

what just happened in this round or my relationship to failure or whatever it might be that actually is constricting my performance, y'all go tilt at that windmill instead. Let me go hit 200 balls and get a blister before I go play again.

Raymond Prior (15:16.492)
Yeah, which we wrap a narrative around that too, which is this is what good players do and this is what must be done. And if I don't do this, then I don't deserve to play well the next day. there's a bunch of, I mean, there's kind of no end to what kind of creative stories we can tell ourselves to chase the things we think we need to chase. But as you point, that might not actually be the thing. And oftentimes it's not.

Pete Kadushin (15:21.198)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (15:38.68)
There's a way of getting to this. If you're working with a coach, right? There's a way that they can help you get past this, which is like, all right, I just want to feel more settled over the golf ball. In service of what? Right? What's available for you if you feel more settled or if things feel calmer or you have more confidence.

Raymond Prior (15:55.566)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (16:04.386)
because we can go after a bunch of the stuff that we have created as prerequisites too. And instead you might just keep asking until you arrive at this idea of like, well, what is all of this in service of? Well, I want to be able to be on task on, you know, on target and I want to hit a good golf shot. Okay, well, can I get on task and on target faster and not say, Hey, there's 18 steps I have to take in order to get there. And if I don't get, take care of all these steps.

right, then I'm not going to allow myself to have any freedom or just feel connected to the target. Right, we're creating more work for ourselves.

Raymond Prior (16:39.001)
These are, yeah, these are all the self-imposed gates that make us feel like if I do this, then I not only can I do this, but it will go well. Right. So if this, then this, if this, then this in our last episode, we talked a lot about tying our freedom to context, meaning other people's opinions, the past and the future, just the general challenge that we are facing, the level of certainty involved, and just my own thoughts and feelings about the whole thing, which the narratives are included in that.

and just how many extra gates we create for ourselves and bear, like how many of the barriers in the challenges that we're in are self-imposed versus actually just part of the experience. No, yeah.

Pete Kadushin (17:18.526)
Mm-hmm. That's right. so asking, go ahead.

Raymond Prior (17:23.317)
Okay, okay, go ahead Pete, finish the thought. Nah, just go.

Pete Kadushin (17:25.496)
paper scissors for it.

So once you identify these three pieces and you can work from the actions backwards to beliefs, you can start with beliefs and narrative and then explore what's coming up and what's in the way of what you want. And then from there, the next step is like, do you want that to be the world you're living in? Because again, it's going to occur as if it's physics. And then just like in the matrix, physics got to bend a little bit.

Raymond Prior (17:49.678)
Yeah.

Pete Kadushin (17:59.29)
in that movie is like, well, do you want those to be the rules? Because you can argue all day that this is just the way it is, right? I need to have a good range session or else I'm not going to feel ready to get on the course. I need to roll my first couple of putts really well when I'm on on that first hole or first couple of holes or else I'm going to have a bad day putting we go great. I'm not arguing with you with whether or not that feels true. Do you want it to be true? Because that then opens the door.

Raymond Prior (18:18.605)
Yeah.

Pete Kadushin (18:28.76)
to what happens next. If the answer is like, no, I'm unwilling, then my job as a mental performance coach is to honor that choice. Even if I see something on the other side of that brick wall for that person. If they say, yeah, I wish that it was in different way, then we start to be able to ask questions like, well, how do you wanna be when this shows up? Because it's going to show up. And it's not just gonna show up in golf, but how do you wanna be? What kind of person do you wanna be?

What strengths or essential qualities do you want to lean on? And then the predictable response is like, well, I just don't want the feelings, the bad feelings to be there. So now we're back to avoidance and avoid. Have you noticed how a lot of clients will be in pursuit of something that's over there as a way of actually avoiding what's back here?

Raymond Prior (19:09.55)
That's right.

Raymond Prior (19:21.174)
Yeah, look, there's no shortage of human history, particularly with men, not only with men, but particularly with men, which I will avoid all of my insecurities and shortcomings and all this stuff by achieving. So I will pursue outcome success, which will then bury the stuff that I just don't want to deal with, only I can't really freely pursue the stuff that I really want because I haven't dealt with my insecurities and the stuff that I'm hoping that achievement will bury.

Pete Kadushin (19:34.989)
Hmm

Raymond Prior (19:50.177)
and all the narratives that run with that. And like we could see this as a serious trap loop for a lot of people. And it's not that that creates, it's from a place of psychological weakness. Like we learn our core beliefs and our narratives from other people and from our own experiences when we explain things to ourselves in a certain way that then becomes the associations our brain makes all this. And then you can say like, you're kind of stuck in quicksand until...

Pete Kadushin (19:56.302)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Prior (20:16.054)
You stop moving in the quicksand a little bit and address while you got in there in the first place. You know, and we've talked again on the show a thousand times about there's a domino effect for anything that we do. And it begins with our psychology every time. And we do not get a choice in that. Right. So what core beliefs, what explanations, what narratives, what expect expectations I believe come, bring coming to things with the mindsets I build around it, the reinforcement structure.

Pete Kadushin (20:18.061)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (20:30.51)
That's

Pete Kadushin (20:36.728)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Prior (20:42.508)
and the confirmation by all of these things that fall under our psychological framework are the first domino. That then creates our neurological state and neurochemical state. And then everything else moves off after that, right? And here you're talking about, well, if I don't deal with this first domino, there's nothing down the line that can actually handle it in a way, because it will get in the way of me getting that thing most of the time, except for very specific contexts.

Pete Kadushin (21:10.92)
One, the interesting thing about this is that we become very attached to our domino. We will proclaim that we don't like it or we don't want what it's producing for us, which is a plateau and the perceived barrier to the next level of our scoring. And we will also then really clutch it close because it's part of our identity. We have created this sense of this is who we are.

And so the way that plays out is you have a client who then starts to really see all of these beliefs and all the actions that result from them and the way that their life inevitably then plays out on the golf course because of all of it. And as they're starting to gain this awareness and they may have said, yes, I want the rules to be different. They're also so attached to the rules of the game that they're trying to continue to win the game from the inside out.

Raymond Prior (22:01.838)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (22:02.668)
Right, so the answer is I need to hit it further away on the first hole so that I can roll a good long one and not feel the pressure of having to make a short putt early. Right? No, no, no, doc. That's just what I need to do.

Raymond Prior (22:11.68)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I want to go into the final round, but I don't want to be leading the tournament. So I actually want to be in a position of disadvantage.

Pete Kadushin (22:18.178)
I want to be close.

I want to be within a couple of strokes, but I don't want to be leading. And definitely don't let me lead by like six or seven because then...

Raymond Prior (22:28.576)
Yeah, of course, that would be very embarrassing if it didn't work out.

Pete Kadushin (22:31.776)
Right. And so you can watch people operate from inside the structure. And then part of my job is to be a commitment to revealing that and saying, like, I think you're trying to win the game again. I think you're and the next part of this process is for the client to finally essentially just give up that particular part of the game and recognize that there's no the game is designed not to be won from inside. Because part of.

Raymond Prior (22:57.538)
Yeah, you don't win psychology.

Pete Kadushin (23:00.522)
One part of our structures, psychological structures exist to hold us in a place of comfort. Right? So it wants us to stay where we are, which includes failure and it includes performing less than our best. It includes wanting something, but not owning it fully so that I'd not destroyed when I don't get it. All of these things that look like self-sabotage are just protective functions of our psychology and we can't get rid of those.

Raymond Prior (23:21.911)
Mm-hmm.

Raymond Prior (23:28.814)
That's right.

Pete Kadushin (23:31.03)
Right, we just know that they're going to be there and we get to work with them as they show up. And so you're inside the game, trying to win the game, knowing it's an unwinnable game. Right, if I'm really wrapped around par as a number, right, and I make a bogey on a scoreable par five and now I feel like I'm behind and now I go, okay, well, I need to take an extra chance on this long par four that comes after it. And even though I don't need to fire at the flag, it's actually outside of the strategies that I've been putting together. I'm going to do it.

Raymond Prior (23:39.971)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (23:59.98)
And now I make a double. Okay, well what just happened there? Well, we can work through the beliefs that then led to the actions that then create the reality where you go, well, like what other choice did I have?

Raymond Prior (24:09.698)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, that.

Pete Kadushin (24:11.384)
to unwind that for someone, it's gonna take time for them to be able to let go of their relationship to par and to score. Not because score doesn't matter. You wanna score your lowest, but instead because the current relationship you have is gonna keep you trapped and make it unavailable for you to act different.

Raymond Prior (24:26.723)
Yeah.

meaning it's too rigid and protective, your relationship with it, rather than pursuit based and flexible, which means there's gonna be ups and downs along the way that don't necessarily have to be guarded against, protected from, made up from, or deviating from what is best for me just because something happens.

Chase Cooper (24:49.188)
Well.

Pete Kadushin (24:49.39)
Well, and you can think about how this builds out. So one, I have my relationship to par. Short par five should have made birdie at least. But then all of a sudden I'm thinking about, what are my playing partners thinking about me? Right? What are the people who are spectating thinking about me? Now, if I was going to win a tournament like this, they would expect me to. And so now I've created extra beliefs and then projected those beliefs into other people's heads. And now I'm reflecting on how that

Raymond Prior (25:02.231)
Sure.

Pete Kadushin (25:17.782)
And so you can see how quickly it can really restrain the opportunity to just be with this shot and then be with this moment of executing the shot and then allowing the next shot to be exactly as it is.

Raymond Prior (25:31.224)
comes immensely distracting.

Pete Kadushin (25:33.314)
Yes, you're carrying everything with you in a way that feels necessary. It's not even invisible. Golfers will name for you, right, that they can remember what happened on two on 15 and how that changed everything. It's like, do you want that to be true?

Raymond Prior (25:38.926)
Yeah.

Chase Cooper (25:50.341)
Well, and then Pete too, then they blame their golf swing. They make Bogan on the first hole, they can't be over par. They take on a flag they're not supposed to take on. They turn it over a little bit and then they wonder why they're hooking it so much.

Pete Kadushin (25:54.605)
Yes.

Pete Kadushin (26:03.018)
And the safety of swing mechanics is something I see over and over again with golf clients is like.

There's something I can control in here. There's a problem I can identify and then I can put my energy towards fixing it.

Raymond Prior (26:21.097)
and touch physically, which feels to us like we're doing more or in control as you pointed out there.

Pete Kadushin (26:23.146)
Mm-hmm. And it becomes

Pete Kadushin (26:30.612)
And it ends up being a, well yeah, go ahead Chase.

Chase Cooper (26:33.57)
I was just going to say, would love for both of you guys to give us more real world examples, high level to say, deeper levels of belief actions and realities and in a perfect segue to how does our belief systems about our golf swing then change our actions or affect our actions, which then becomes our reality.

Pete Kadushin (26:54.188)
Yeah, thing that is, especially with like the rise of launch monitors and simulators where golfers are now really aware of their numbers is like the, can have somebody look at you and say like, well, it's path and face. And I go like, well, sure. I can't argue with that. Physics is physics. And then they can quickly diagnose, you know, they've worked with a swing coach and they can say, here's all the things that just happened in that swing.

And it occurs to them that like, there's nothing else they could do with that information except for identify it and then try and act upon it. And when we look at the belief structure around that, like for me, what I often see is that people were really comfortable and have created some identity around solving problems. To Raymond's point, it also feels like something to do, right? So I identify a mistake I made on the last swing. It feels threatening to just let that go.

It's like seeing a panther out in the jungle and then being like, yeah, that's probably going home. It's not chasing me. That's how it attracts for our nervous systems. And if I could instead just say, Hey, my default today is a great golf swing. And my only job is to show up to the next swing at my default ready state instead of thinking I need to respond to the last swing. But within that belief structure, then the action of I got to take a practice swing to clear it.

I have to figure out what happened. You know, did I flip my wrists? You know, was I leaning too far back and I didn't release. Now all of a sudden it's like, okay, well those are the actions that I need to take. And then I might be standing on the next T-box, you know, going through whatever corrective routine. Now my attention split and scattered. I'm juggling more than one chainsaw at a time, which is a terrible idea. And the reality that that creates, and Raymond, I'll give you a moment here after this to fill in the gaps.

The reality that it creates is that as I get more more fixated on tech, like technical stuff, I see more technical stuff and I feel really competent at being able to diagnose and explain the technical stuff. Now I can turn to my playing partners and go, okay, was, you know, this is what happened and I know it and I'm going to be able to change it. And then you start giving other people advice. So there's a feeling good about it that inside of the game,

Pete Kadushin (29:18.408)
makes it feel like you're being productive, even while they can also acknowledge that it's distracting and that it breaks down the fluidity of the golf swing to be sitting there thinking about on the golf course, this piece and that piece. And so it ends up being one of the major hindrances to effective scoring and effective performance. But in the name of, like, what else could I do? You know, I came up and over the top on that one, I got to do something to fix it.

Raymond Prior (29:47.886)
Chase, I'll just pull a major thread from what Pete's talking about is for us as human beings, when there's something we really want and is meaningful to us, it is very, very difficult for us in our nervous system to do nothing in response to stuff that sucks, both in the past and in the future and in our current experience. And oftentimes that's exactly what needs to be done with those things in order for us to actually focus on and do the thing in front of us in a way that is aligned with what we actually want.

So we build all kinds of beliefs around things that make us feel in control, comfortable and certain, which was another way of saying less vulnerable and at risk to what we don't want to happen, but they become distractions and they become self-imposed barriers. Again, all in the name of, I really, really want that. How do I feel like I'm in control of this? And how do I respond to stuff I don't want by trying to make sure that that in my past or this in my present?

will not play out again in my future. And there's layers to that. That's associations we make, the beliefs we have, the stories we tell ourselves about what is and isn't acceptable. And what it just continues to do is make us feel a certain way while doing a certain thing and chasing that feeling of I'm not that vulnerable or maybe the future will for sure be this and won't be that. I mean, you would ask for some real life examples. You can pick whichever one you want. We would get so creative.

trying to figure out, we'll apply everything from denial to confirmation bias, to slamming ourselves with these unrealistic expectations, to making the conclusion that if this, then that in a way that may or may not be true. mean, well, our brain and us will go to great lengths to try to avoid what we deem we must avoid in things where we are actually vulnerable to the things that we don't want to experience, which as Pete used the correct word before, it's mostly heartbreak.

Pete Kadushin (31:40.814)
Mm hmm. Well, and chase to your to your question, you know, I'm playing the same course four times in a row yesterday on, you know, 15 tight driving hole doesn't fit my eye because of the shot shape that I have. And I almost rolled it out of bounds or there was water right. And it landed in the water.

I get there the next day and by default, because of the way that we're wired, my nervous system and the stories that I then tell myself about what this means, right? I'm going to be thinking about that unless I've trained something different. And then I'm going to either be handcuffed to what happened or in reaction and avoidant of what happened in a way that still puts me in a reactive mode. so, and again, you ask a golfer and the golfer's like, well,

Yeah, it's important for me to hold on to, or it's important for me to actively be fighting with. And it's the next evolution of their psychology and their relationship to the experience to be able to say like, all of that can show up. Because again, I'll go back to like a true safety thing. If you're wandering through the jungle and you're a prehistoric man and you see a panther over there, it's really important that if you ever end up in the exact same space that you remember there's a panther over that way because

You wander too far that direction, you're gonna end up eaten. And so these things are wired in us as part of a negativity bias to keep us alive. If we're not working to shift our relationship to them, then we just don't have the availability of different actions. If I don't have beliefs that say like, can trust my golf swing, right? can pick my target and it's okay if I'm anxious, nervous. It's okay if I'm having an abnormal experience in my body.

Raymond Prior (33:18.679)
Yeah.

Pete Kadushin (33:30.19)
and I'm just gonna stay committed to the target and I trust that my swing is gonna produce. If I don't have that designed and trained, then of course I'm gonna be worrying about the water that I splashed it in. Or of course I'm gonna be worrying about, you know, I've got a slippery downhill three footer, worrying about rolling it six feet past and then missing the comeback.

Raymond Prior (33:47.278)
Yeah. And here we see, go ahead, good chase, go.

Chase Cooper (33:48.654)
P-

I was just going say Pete, I ask Raymond this all the time and I'm really curious about, you know, swing thoughts and where they have a role. And then also when we can blame from a healthy way, when we can blame our golf swing and recognize that it was a mechanical issue that we can maybe try to make the attempt to adjust throughout the round. Like how do you recommend those different kind of thoughts with your clients? How do you handle those?

Pete Kadushin (34:19.244)
Yeah, the swing thoughts, such an interesting place to peel back our beliefs. And a mutual friend and former professor of Raymond and I, he was a high level college golfer. And he would get on the T-box, the first T-box when he was getting ready to play a match against someone. He'd say, hey, I'm really wondering, you know, I'm trying to puzzle this out for myself. Do you inhale or exhale on your downswing? And he'd just laugh and...

Jack would describe watching people fall apart, trying to figure out what was best. And the answer is, it doesn't matter. Right, like you could make an argument that exhaling creates more inter-abdominal pressure, blah, blah, blah, sure. Right, but if we believe that it's important, all of a sudden we're gonna find confirmation that it's important. And so, you know, the client that says, well, I have to have one swing key and it's gotta be the one thing that I pay attention to.

Raymond Prior (34:55.842)
Doesn't matter.

Pete Kadushin (35:16.876)
that feels really true to them. The other athlete that says, hey, I just need to be looking at the ball and it doesn't matter what my mind does. Great. There are some people like, hey, my mind is gonna take a vacation. I'm gonna be daydreaming about something while my body is on target. And so what it comes back to is like, is it in the way? So if I need to believe that I have to have a 15 step, your prep to launch.

process in my mind and then I land on the exact right swing thought and then that swing thought creates perfect, you know, synergy in my body. I'm setting myself up to have a really narrow window of success. And the truth is like I've had all sorts of totally deranged thoughts jump in at the last minute that were no big deal because my body was on target and my attention was on the right stuff. And so they didn't have to be an issue unless I went, like you're right. I should worry about the water.

and so it really is going to be client specific, but for me into Raymond's comment around flexibility or adaptability is like the more rigid it is, the narrower the window of success and the more open it is and sort of like, well, today this is working, tomorrow it might be something a little bit different and I feel empowered and I trust myself to figure that out. That's, think the most important piece, to your last question.

Raymond Prior (36:35.511)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (36:41.006)
When can you blame the technical? I there's a lot of opportunities, especially with my golf swing, to do that. The question is, is there more upside to trying to change it now versus the risk of trying to tinker? And this is where the art comes in, is like, you know, if you are a finely honed machine and you've spent thousands of hours working on your golf swing,

and you're really sensitive to all of that, you might be able to course correct, but we can watch guys on the PGA tour who just don't have it that day. And the best thing they can do is like get around with some duct tape and bubble gum, try and limit the damage and then sort it out after. And so for me, it's a time scale thing is like, if there's an easy fix, I just need to remind myself of like the feeling I created on the range or the day before. That's one thing, but if I'm really trying to like get in there and puzzle it all out,

I'm generally going to get more lost tunneling down in there than I am going to have the upside of being able to sort it out.

Chase Cooper (37:43.717)
One quick follow up. So with my young players, high school players, college players, I like to get them to recognize like to place blame on a miss. Like were they free and committed to what they were trying to do crystal clear and what they were trying to do. And if they weren't, obviously we start there. We bring freedom first, be on time first, all the things that Raymond's taught me. If we brought freedom to it and the ball went left and we were trying to fade it, then the face was closed. Can we open the face? Can we make small little adjustments? And I like to tell them, I'm like, I don't want to waste freedom.

If we brought freedom to it, I don't mind you making small little changes to get the and use your tools that you've practiced with on the on the range and and be able to add some small little tools to make the ball do what you want. What are your thoughts on that?

Pete Kadushin (38:25.678)
Yeah, the thing I often will come back to is, you know, in response to one shot might end you up someplace else, right? But if I notice that ball's going left, you know, the first three holes that might call me to then make a subtle adjustment or it might just flag for me in my awareness. Like, let me go back to my basics and check my alignment, check, you know, the things that I know. So instead of like,

Raymond Prior (38:55.094)
Yes.

Pete Kadushin (38:55.118)
creating something new. I'm just trying to come back to baseline and go like, okay, is there something that I haven't noticed has drifted out of compliance? Right? And again, the more an athlete has developed the skill and sensitivity, I think the more they have the opportunity to then dabble with some of those changes. And the caveat I always want to make is that we can get stuck in that space.

And this is actually a huge mistake I made early in my career where I would talk about a training mindset and a trusting mindset. And athletes can very easily get stuck in their training mindset while they're trying to perform. And so if they're prepared to say, okay, let me adjust my grip a little bit, or maybe I need to move my feet, or I just need to think about that feeling so that my swings back on plane. Be like, great. But then how can I get back to on time and free when it's time? And if I'm going to get stuck in the mechanics,

Raymond Prior (39:48.204)
Yeah.

Pete Kadushin (39:50.914)
then my sense is that it's better to just do the best you can with what you got. And maybe there's like at the turn, there's an opportunity to pull yourself out of the flow of it for a second, do a little bit more. Got some fireworks there by accident. yeah, some, some emphasis to this comment. So then there might be time to step out of the flow and do a little bit of that work. But it takes training to stay with the trusting mindset and just being with that.

Raymond Prior (40:01.15)
wow

Chase Cooper (40:03.44)
That was the Riverside life we were talking about.

Pete Kadushin (40:20.982)
And so it's always a give or take, but I like where you're headed with it, especially with athletes who have gotten the practice and the reps.

Chase Cooper (40:28.578)
as long as they can train it enough outside of the arena to understand what the tools are. like very, very few times would I ever say to change a grip or it'd be a little bit of setup or ball position or club face at address, like very, very simple things.

Raymond Prior (40:28.908)
Yeah.

Raymond Prior (40:34.039)
Yeah.

Pete Kadushin (40:39.788)
Yeah, there you go.

Raymond Prior (40:40.845)
Yeah. We also might, yeah, a big part of that, what Pete's really highlighting, which I'll kind of pull out for our listeners here is he's suggesting that you're making an adjustment that is about the task at hand after a large enough sample size to make a conclusion that that change may or may not be necessary. So a sample size of one for any golfer of any skill level, seeing a ball do something is not large enough.

Pete Kadushin (40:42.828)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Raymond Prior (41:10.379)
to start tasking yourself with fixing your golf swing. Certainly true for higher handicap golfers, but even for professional golfers, I hooked that one. You hooked that one, period, end of sentence. It may or may not be a pattern, but if you start guarding against that, it probably will start a pattern, right? So sample size of one, probably even in golf, we're talking.

Like we need at least a sample size of four or five, depending on your skill level before you could really start making conclusions about some.

Pete Kadushin (41:42.562)
Yeah, you can end up in the wilderness really quickly having adjusted one thing and then going like, okay, well maybe that's not it. So I got to adjust something else. And now all of a sudden, you know, I look like a pretzel at address and I don't know which way it's going. And now I'm way worse off than if I just played with the swing that I.

Raymond Prior (41:45.355)
Really fast. Yep.

Raymond Prior (41:50.615)
Yeah.

Raymond Prior (42:00.654)
Yeah. And I'll go back to the swing thoughts portion there. Again, Pete, correct me if I'm off course. You're saying is this swing thoughts type of a thing a, um, it, what am I actually using it for is the question you're kind of asking. Correct me if I'm off course.

Chase Cooper (42:10.008)
did we lose him?

Pete Kadushin (42:11.124)
we might've. I'll correct him since he was probably wrong.

Chase Cooper (42:14.276)
We can, we can start it back over. We'll let Raymond deal with this for a second and see if he comes back. I guess my question too, and this is all off, so we'll, you know, we'll, we'll cut this out. you're back.

Pete Kadushin (42:17.484)
Yeah.

Raymond Prior (42:26.861)
Oh, there we go. Okay, it came back. I don't know what happened there. Okay. We'll just pick up here. Pete, we're...

Chase Cooper (42:30.67)
So real quick on both and this we may start back over, but I do have a follow up question about if, if a tour player takes Scotty or somebody else that let's say they hit a predominant fade, John Rom gets up and hits a hundred fades in a row gets up on the first tee and swings completely free and committed and it pulls. So if it was me, I hit nothing but fades with driver. If I get up and I pull the first one, I'm going to adjust my face a little bit on the second swing. If I brought freedom to it.

I have no problem making those adjustments. And I tell a lot of my really good players to do the same thing. So I'm curious, curious, you guys, mean, do you, you still think that's too, that's too much for elite players when they have a sample size of the last thousand drives they've hit have all been cuts. And then they yank one on the first tee with freedom. Like that's, mean, if, Chet Hongren shoots a free throw and

Raymond Prior (43:17.765)
If it's on the first T. Like your range session and the first T are not the same context and climate.

Chase Cooper (43:20.514)
And that and and I right but I think to that point if Chet shoots a free throw in the in the first free throw the game is long he's making an adjustment he's shooting it shorter what's the difference between what's the difference between

Raymond Prior (43:31.979)
I don't know. I don't know that that's true. Like the auto correct on, that one was off the back iron and like, man, I need to aim for the front of the rim. Now is, is not usually the course correction that they make.

Chase Cooper (43:43.045)
And I guess what I, the way I like for my players and I'm, I'm, wanting to be corrected on this because I do all my really elite college players. have, I talk about this all the time. If you brought freedom to it and the first tee can be a little jittery, but I would still ask if you brought freedom to it and it didn't curve the way you wanted it to curve. don't mind small little face adjustment or setup adjustments. I feel like you have to assume that's what you have that day. And

And again, I teach my players to curve a lot. So they practice this a lot, but I'm, curious on, I'm curious, cause doc Raymond, I've talked about this a lot, but that's, that's what I tell my players. w if, if, if we bring freedom to it, I don't want them to waste freedom. I just don't. Cause it, to me, at least for me personally, it was hard to bring freedom to a lot of, a lot of, you know, higher level, high stress environments. And so I don't want to waste it.

Pete Kadushin (44:25.228)
Mm-hmm.

Pete Kadushin (44:31.33)
Yeah, for me, it would be easy to end up with a patterned response. know, X leads to Y, therefore Z. And the truth is, is that for the athletes that you work with or somebody on the PGA tour, that might work some of the time and it might not work some of the time. And the sensitivity that we want to build in the athletes we work with is to know when, you know, today, this is what it feels like.

Raymond Prior (44:31.489)
Pete?

Pete Kadushin (45:00.8)
I'm just going to hit another one. And if I get two or three that start to stack up, now I'll adjust versus, you know what? I can feel in my body that there was something that needed to be addressed right now. And so that that's what we start to see as you move from like very, very good as an intermediate into the elite level. And I love thinking of these. They're not one big long ladder, right? There's a number of ladders and you got to jump off the ladder you're on to go learn the skills that are going to get you up the next ladder.

And one of the things that I think for the elite college golfer golfer that's pursuing, you know, the tour and all that is being able to have the sensitivity to break the rules sometimes because they can just tell that that's what the system needs. And so, I'm not, not answering, but the answer for me is really to empower the athlete and to allow them to start picking up on those signals when they're ready to get onto that ladder in general, though, I got to side with Raymond on this one.

Chase Cooper (45:59.938)
Give it a few more than just a one of one. I think that's fair, especially off the first tee.

Raymond Prior (46:04.268)
Yeah. Also again, where you collect your sample, not to get super, you know, research methods here, but on the range and on the course is not the same sample set. So let's say I have a great range session, everything cuts. And then I go to the first tee and it just pulls, meaning I just couldn't get the face open to the path. That's, that's an N of one, not one of a large sample. That is just one data point from a new sample. Cause it's from a context where score actually counts.

Chase Cooper (46:32.196)
And so could you argue that because the probably weren't as free, mean the freedom side of things?

Raymond Prior (46:38.798)
You would have to ask how freely did I play that swing? And if the answer is yes, then last Pete's saying, depending on how much I know myself or the context here or whatever, maybe I make a change on the next one. But for most golfers even like, I mean, that was the difference between hitting a pole and hitting a fade at the PJ tour. You're like less than a degree with the driver face is like maybe the next one fades exactly how you want it to. So, you know, I just think it's a very

It's introducing inconsistency. If I start making technical changes after every shot, I see that doesn't do exactly what I want it to do. And again, you have a huge caveat with that. Did I actually play those shots freely to begin with to know that that sample size all goes together? Right. Yeah.

Chase Cooper (47:26.404)
And that's always the first question. Did you bring freedom to it? And then it's, we just have a bunch of small little setup tweaks or we may preset the face at a half a degree. mean, like just little small things. I'm just curious you guys' thoughts on it.

Raymond Prior (47:38.318)
Yeah.

Pete Kadushin (47:38.894)
Well, and to go back to the chat example, my sense for those guys is that they're going to come back to they've shot that many free throws and the default, or at least this is how I would want to craft it if I could install the mindset, is that the next one's gonna be perfect because that's how my body knows how to execute. And if I start thinking about to Raymond's point, let me aim for front rim because the last one was long.

Now I'm starting to create some conscious processing over a non-conscious physical act action. So now I'm thinking about giving it a little extra oomph or do I bend my knees a little bit more and our minds can't possibly compute all of the minute adjustments that the body needs to make to create a free throw, let alone a golf swing. And so

Raymond Prior (48:14.316)
Yeah, that declared.

Raymond Prior (48:27.874)
Yeah. Declarative processing cannot come catch up and make those minute things in the way that procedural knowledge can just adapt to something it sees and, kind of auto correct.

Chase Cooper (48:39.044)
But isn't doesn't the research show doc to Raymond that you're both docs? can't say doc now your picture messing up the flow here. Raymond don't I mean, because we talk all the time about the brain knows extremes and practicing back or in front rim like I know I mean, my dad was a D one basketball player. I was a really good shooter. If I shot the first three the game a little bit long, I would make an adjustment. Like if I shot the first free throw a little short, I'm shooting the second one I'm making it and that's why most I mean,

Pete Kadushin (48:46.52)
Yeah.

Chase Cooper (49:06.242)
the make range on the second free throw after a miss on the NBA is guaranteed higher than the than just just a normal normal make right and so I'm just curious like those little adjustments that's what great athletes do don't they I mean what's what am I missing

Raymond Prior (49:20.438)
Yeah, I would say there's this gray space that looks kind of like a line at times, which do I actually need to make a conscious change or adjustment in this? Or can I just try again and allow my brain and body and nervous system to adjust in a way that it probably already knows how? Which again, it's a gray space.

Pete Kadushin (49:43.854)
Well, the question I would have is, do I want a mindset that says by default, the next thing that happens is going to be the thing I want. And like for a 15 or 20 handicapper, this is probably not the space that we get to inhabit because there's just so much variability in the golf swing. And I think when it's time to go perform, that's still probably the place that I want that golfer.

is like the swing that I've been training is the swing that's going to emerge because what that does, one is it limits my desire to like grab hold of all of the corrective stuff that I've gotten from my swing coach or I've figured out on my own or the swing aid that I'm thinking about. And two, what it does is it builds like a foundational trust. And I think drawing the line between confidence and trust, I want to trust that I have the golf swing in there that I need today.

And if I don't have just the exact swing that I want, right, I trust that I can get around and score my best for whatever that swing is today without tinkering. And I would rather be, and if I'm chet, I would rather be in the same position where it's like, Hey, my default shot at the free throw line is the one that goes in. And what that does is it creates the freedom to Raymond's point of my body to make the adjustments for me. And so, you know, I don't doubt that there's some part of the body mind system that might say, Hey, next one goes a little bit further.

But I think if the conscious mind grabs a hold of that and starts to say, okay, what do I need to do to create extra oomph so that this next one gets there?

Chase Cooper (51:18.904)
The technical aspect, I I definitely agree with that side. Yeah, for sure.

Raymond Prior (51:20.278)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Pete Kadushin (51:22.252)
And this is the gray area that Raymond's pointing to is that it, there might be a feeling or a direct experience quality in the body that doesn't quite make it to the language centers. There's like, okay, this is what needs to shift. But if I then start to unpack it with language and pull it up to that level of conscious processing, that's where I think things start to degrade.

Raymond Prior (51:45.071)
Yeah, that goes from procedural to declarative processing. Once we start to pull that in, as we've talked about before, our brain, it's that part of our brain is too slow and too weak to be able to keep up. And it also runs different tasks. And those tasks are usually related to control, comfort, and certainty, which are not the actual task at hand.

Pete Kadushin (52:02.751)
One.

Pete Kadushin (52:06.296)
Well, and to just then tie it back to what Chase spoke to, right? A shift in setup or ball position or like where the face is. Notice that that's all stuff that happens prior to the swing itself and has nothing to do with what do you need to do differently with your back hip or what do need your transition to look like? And so there's something important in that detail too, which is like you set up a little different and then you let the swing run as it runs. That's, think in a different category than

Chase Cooper (52:32.098)
This is it.

Pete Kadushin (52:35.094)
What do I need to do to get my swing back?

Raymond Prior (52:37.164)
That's right, no doubt.

Chase Cooper (52:37.54)
One quick final follow up question, Pete, that I had that you said earlier that I thought was really interesting. said sports tends to, sports tends to, you know, the same psychology we bring to some of our sports also shows up in other areas. I've had a lot of people tell me that they treat golf differently than they do the rest. I mean, do you see some sports kind of change the way our psychology is? Golf's a little bit of a different animal or is that always kind of an across the board thing?

Pete Kadushin (53:05.898)
So what gets really interesting, and I was in that category for a long time, which was like different contexts are going to bring different mindsets and it's true to a certain level, right? So if we think about those role related responses that we have, we're going to act differently on the course with our buddies than we are at work. Probably depends. Right.

or with our significant other or around our kids. And so there is some shift in the way that those behaviors emerge. And then the rules that we have around golf might not be the same rules that we have around a different sport that we don't have the same level of care for. So like if you don't care about pickleball at all, then the type of psychology that would emerge on the golf course isn't going to emerge during your pickleball match.

That doesn't mean that the rules are different though. It means that the rules just don't apply here because the care or the desire isn't necessarily there. And so when you start thinking about the things that I want really badly and they are uncertain because that's the way our world works, we're going to apply the same set of rules to all of those scenarios and then adjust for the context. like if I walk into a room and I'm giving a workshop, I'm not going to act the same way.

Chase Cooper (54:06.808)
sense.

Pete Kadushin (54:28.278)
I would on the golf course with my buddies, but the software that's underneath it is going to be running similarly. And to bring it back to what Raymond highlighted earlier, so much of this and the rules that we've created are around avoiding heartbreak. I would rather have death by a thousand paper cuts, never fully committing, because if I don't fully commit, the future is still available.

one day I will and then I'm going to be the golfer I want to be or I'll hit the shot that I know I can hit or I'll finally break 80. But we die sort of that quiet constriction. And the one of the biggest leaps I see for clients is when they can finally embrace the fact that if I really want something deeply, this is the price of admission. Right. To want something deeply and know the consequences, I'm going to get kicked in the heart if I don't get it and say I'll be OK.

on the other side, it's gonna feel awful, right? That's just part of it. And I can be okay, and then I can get up, I can learn from it, and I can keep going. But until we get there, it's really hard to be in pursuit mode fully, because we're always avoiding at the base level, the heartbreak that's a part of wanting something deeply.

Chase Cooper (55:41.208)
That was fantastic. That was great.

Raymond Prior (55:42.382)
Pete, real quick, tell people where they can find you when away from this show.

Pete Kadushin (55:49.484)
Yeah, I have a podcast of my own called the mental training lab. Raymond has been a guest on the show a number of times. You can find that at mtl.academy. And then if you want to check out the coaching that I do, if you're interested in that sort of work with me, drkcoaching.com drkcoaching.com. You can find me there and drop me a line and reach out. I'd love to hear from you.

Raymond Prior (56:15.182)
Pete, thanks so much. I know we're tight on time here, so we're gonna let you get going. Amazing guy, appreciate you.

Chase Cooper (56:20.58)
Thanks so much. It was nice meeting you. That was awesome.

Pete Kadushin (56:21.218)
Yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much guys. Really appreciate it. Love to talk shop anytime.

Raymond Prior (56:26.799)
That'd be great. Okay. Thank you so much for joining us on Golf Beneath the Surface and we'll catch you next time.